Engage.

Wednesday, August 10, 2005

Stuff People Do and Stuff

Let's return to our more sober, serious, life altering blog subjects, shall we?
I'll warn you, I'm really not going to put much effort into what I'm going to write. I've had one beer tonight, and one is enough. I'm so drowsy I can barely stretch my pinkies out enough to type my Qs and Ps.
So, truth and stuff. Check it. There are some things that we believe that we take for granted as true. The sun will rise in the east sort of stuff. There's some stuff many of us take for granted as givens that seem just as obvious to us. For example, our beliefs.
I contend that it is these things that are so accepted as true that deserve to be challenged the most. Many beliefs/practices persist through tradition merely because people don't bother to seriously question them. And they fill an emotional need.
Jennifer and I have a hard time understanding why people want to have kids and why so many do, when having kids enslaves the parents in so many ways. Ofcourse, "enslave" is a harsh word, but parenthood really, truly goes a long way to narrowing and selecting the sort of lifestyle a person is going to have for years and years. No, I can't fully appreciate the emotional rewards people recieve from having children, and because of that, Its rather dumb that I even say anything about it, but I have an ideal, and that ideal is a life of freedom, personal growth/enlightenment, and such... I just don't see how having kids would make me freer.
Living together. Here's something else people tend to do. Husbands and wives, and quite often, boyfriends and girlfriends. I've felt pressure to do it with my girlfriend as well. At times its an attractive idea. But I recognize that living together is "something that people do", and just like "something people just believe", living together might not actually be the best thing for happiness n' all. Thus, a little rational thinking might come in handy... and after having done this rational thinking, I've come to think that the idea of living together is largely irrational. 'Course, this isn't a final conclusion. And of course, everyone is different, and different living arrangements might be better for different people. The way I put it to Fern tonight was--every day we look forward to quality time, and its during this quality time that we are in our best moods and have the most fun. These are times after work, or on the weekends, when we aren't kranky, tired, whatever...when we've mentaly prepared ourselves the entire rest of the day for the good time and good mood that we will have during those few minutes or hours of quality time that we intend on having. I believe that it is during these times that we should come together and revel in each others good will/mood, attraction and feeling. .. anyway, that's how I put it, more or less. Fern actually brought up the subject and sentiment...having expressed similar sentiments before, I could only concur.
But, see?? Having kids, sleeping together, living together...here's some things people just do, yet I have serious hesitations about... anyway, told you I wouldn't try. Hope I can make it up to my bed... any thoughts?

9 Comments:

At 8:00 AM, Blogger Jennifer said...

"Why I don't want to live with my boyfriend: a list."...by fern.

1. While I enjoy seeing my boyfriend on most days, I don't want to be forced to see him on most days.

2. Quite frequently, I just want to be alone.

3. There times in my life, say when I have bad diarrhea, when being absolutely and completely alone is comforting for me.

4. There are other times in my life, say when I am trying to sleep or want to sleep, when it is best to leave me alone.

5. I like the way that I decorate and I don't want to make concessions.

6. I have always grown to despise my roommates.

7. I have to have my own space or else I will die.

8. Having roommmates implies having a lot of "arrangements" to work out.

Now that I've thought on it, the list really just goes on and on, so I'll just stop here because I'm sure that you get the point.

The impetus for me realizing 100% that I don't want to live with my boyfriend came over this weekend while we were in Bend. Never before have Josh and I engaged in cranky outbursts like we did this weekend. In fact, Josh and I are very good at keeping the cranky outbursts out of our interactions. And I am interested in keeping it that way. Because cranky outbursts aren't sexy.

 
At 8:03 AM, Blogger Vernarial said...

I am going to make an observation here. I might very well be completely wrong, so don't get too upset by it.
It seems to me, Josh, that you are afraid of being hurt. I don't mean physically. I mean emotionally, mentally. I'm sure you have been hurt before and are trying to avoid being hurt again. I am theorizing that this is why you have this attitude of removal from situations like children, marriage, religion,etc..

Anyway thats probably a bit too personal, so I'll get back to the topics as they stand, or as I understand what you were trying to say.

I believe it is true that most of us take certain things for granted, like our beliefs. I however don't think that they are not challenged, but the beliefs are derived from experience. Almost all of my beliefs are of this sort. I have lived long enough and experienced life to such an extent that I just believe certain things because of past experiences. I think I just repeated myself, I think I just repeated myself.
I believe part of what drives people to have children is a basic instinct to preserve the species. I'm not sure why people want to have more than 2 children, but thats a different discussion. Aside from the natural instincts, having children is both a joy beyond words and a curse at times. I don't actually have any children of my own, but I am a sort of nanny by trade. I watch children for a living. In my opinion it would be well worth it to have a couple of kids. Yes it does limit your potential freedoms, but it opens up other opportunities that you wouldn't have experienced without having children. I AM NOT saying that this is you at all, Josh, but it sounds kind of selfish that you are so worried about your freedom that you wouldn't want to experience parenthood.

Living together has both rewards and drawbacks. Of course there is the financial rewards. 1 house payment instead of 2, 1 utility bill, etc.... It does limit your personal space and time. These are things I value highly. Sometimes I think I like my personal time too much. So I can see the benefits and drawbacks of living together. My sister has recently had her boyfriend move in with us, and I told both of them I disagreed with the move. Although my religion agrees with me on this point, I want you to understand that it wasn't because of religion that I told them not to live together. I believe when young relationships are being formed it is not a good idea to rush into things. I believe it is good to have time apart to contemplate the discussions and actions of the other partner. Also if the relationship fails it makes it that much harder to end it. Once a relationship develops to a certain stage some of those times you would think would be bad can become the real meat of a relationship.

I think of the old addage that you can't appreciate the good times/things without experiencing the bad.

 
At 9:03 AM, Blogger Jennifer said...

Since this is *none* of my business about Josh having a fear of being hurt, all I have to say is that I think most people are interested in not being hurt. A lack of interest in being hurt is, I would argue, a common characteristic to most carbon based life forms.

I do appreciate what you have to say, Vern, about it being more of an issue when a relationship ends if the relationshipees have been living together. Definitely a good point. However, I'm not sure if I'm such a fan of basing all of my relationship decisions on the contingency that it might not last for eternity.

 
At 10:11 AM, Blogger Vernarial said...

That is a good point. I didn't mean to imply that we shouldn't avoid being hurt, but that we shouldn't avoid living life and experiencing new things because of a fear of being hurt.
I have a firm belief that discussing or even thinking about a relationship ending is not good while you are in a relationship, but when making a descision as big as living together or marriage for that matter these types of things must be considered.

 
At 12:40 PM, Blogger Jennifer said...

Yea, one should definitely not restrain oneself in one's quality life experiences due to fear. No sense in being a scardie cat. Did you hear that Josh, Vern's calling you a Chicken!

Kidding.

Speaking of the fact that nothing lasts forever, not even cold November Rain, isn't the phrase "'till death do us part" kinda funny.? And by "funny" I actually mean scary and dysfunctional.

 
At 1:26 PM, Blogger Jennifer said...

My friend posted this on my friends' password protected shared blog thingie. I thought it was funny. Especially since over generalizing is such a hoot.
---------------
Mattel Inc. Announced today the Release of Limited Edition Barbie Dolls for the Idaho Market:

Sun Valley Barbie:
This princess Barbie is only sold at Dillards. She comes with an assortment of Kate Spade handbags, a Lexus SUV, a lapdog and a giant log house. Options include tummy tuck, face-lift, greenhouse, and a workaholic Ken.

Park Center Barbie:
This trendy homemaker Barbie is available with the Lexus SUV or Ford
Windstar minivan, gets lost easily, and has no full time occupation or secondary education. Traffic jamming cell phone sold separately. Optional matching gym outfit. Choose from Mormon or Catholic.

Nampa Barbie:
This recently paroled Barbie comes with a 9 mm handgun, a low-rider Chevrolet with oversized wheels and tinted windows and a Meth Lab Ken.

West Boise Barbie:
This yuppie Barbie comes with choice of a BMW sports car or a souped up Hummer 2, Starbucks cup, credit card and shallow Ken.

Kuna Barbie:
This model comes in Wrangler jeans two sizes too small, a NASCAR shirt, big hair, a six pack of Coors Light and a Hank Williams, Jr. CD set. She can spit over 5 feet. A pickup is available with Confederate flag bumper stickers.

North End Barbie:
This Barbie comes in two variations. One has long gray hair and arch-less feet, sandals with white socks, no makeup and a mutt. The other version has frizzy hair, a dingy white tank top, low cut jeans and scratch-n-sniff armpits.

Garden City Barbie:
This tobacco chewing, brassy-haired Barbie's ensemble includes low-rise acid-washed jeans with assorted colored G-strings that stick out the back of her jeans and a white see-through shirt. Her long, layered hair is bleached/highlighted and BIG. Accessories include: CD player equipped with Bon Jovi and a rusty old Ford pick up.

Warm Springs Barbie:
This True Blonde shops exclusively in Saks Fifth Avenue. She drives her Land Rover (sold separately). She has an MBA from Stanford but has never worked outside the home. Her child stroller is bigger than your house. She knows enough Spanish to talk with the nanny; Tagalog to speak to the cook; and Chinese, Vietnamese and Korean, to talk with the gardener, house painter, and housekeeper respectively. She is a lifelong member of the Junior League and her home is featured in Architectural Digest. Her dirty little secret?? She's a closet Democrat.

Columbia Village Barbie:
This tired little blonde comes with dark circles under the eyes from chasing her six kids around all day while Ken works 12-hour shifts at Micron. She as a degree from BYU, but hasn't worked since the birth of her first child. Her 1,500 sf house and minivan are trashed, yet Ken drives a new 4X4 Pickup. She shops exclusively at Wal-mart and Target, and her credit cards are maxed. She claims to be "blessed" and is totally devoted to her husband, the 'Church' and her children. Since she has no personal needs, there are no accessories for her. Ken's new truck, boat and camper sold separately.

They are working on developing a "Caldwell Barbie", but she keeps getting shot.

----

 
At 10:27 PM, Blogger Josh said...

neato, I saw all of these comments while I was at work today but couldn't respond because I was at work.
Fern, yes, mmhmm, me to, oh yes, I understand, how unfortunate, don't die, yeah, screw arrangements.
No, cranky outbursts aren't sexy, but screaming knock-down drag-out fights get me all hot n' bothered. Wanna give it a go?

Vern, I think I'll go ahead and disagree on this one. I'm not afraid to get hurt, cause much of my life I've felt I've existed in a state of hurt (boohoo), so believe me, I'm used to a little hurt. In fact there have been times in my life when I've embraced it or welcomed it. I told Fern way back on our first date that I'm all for crashing and burning when it comes to relationships. Heartbreak is as much living intensely as is being in love, I'd just prefer the later. I'm for intensity of feeling; and being mortal, I know that immense suffering is just around the bend, with old age, accidents, or whatever, so, no, I'll take all life can give me, even though I know it will take it all away, so much sooner than I'd prefer.

The attitude of removal from the situations of marriage, children, religion, etc derives more from an attitude of defiance, er rebellion...but I'd like to think of it as common sense. If we truly had one life to live, how would we want to live that life? My answer might be different from yours. My answer doesn't involve toting around a bunch of kids (my kids), "sanctifying"/"making official" an already great relationship, or doing what some much less informed old people tell me to do in some ancient text. I see it as that simple. I don't hold these institutions or lifestyles as sacred or "great" or worthy of extreme admiration...I just think they don't mesh what I invision as the ideal life, atleast for now.

I totally respect your reasons for belief...I too believe based on experience. Ofcourse, we just want to be sure that if we experience a comet we don't believe in angels...you know, there's still got to be reason involved. If I didn't know what a comet was, I'd accept that I don't know, figure out what I can, but not declare that it was an angel.

I agree with you Vern on the statement that it seems like I'm selfish for not wanting kids. I don't want to take care of anyone else's kids or the kids I could have right not if I married early on. Why would I want that responsibility? I can't think of a good reason. I can say more about being selfish, but I'm frikin tired right now and my roomate is talking to me, so I can't quite focus, soooo, more later... thanks a lot for the input.

 
At 8:09 AM, Blogger Josh said...

I'm talking about having kids. Since we're talking about having kids, I know it might sound like I'm dissing Vern for taking care of kids for a living, which I'm not. I think kids are cool, have usually gotten along better with kids than people my own age, and think that taking care of or teaching kids for a living would be awesome.

Vern, although I appreciate the sensitivity to my feelings, don't worry about me getting "too upset" about your observations or thoughts regarding me. Even if you said "Josh, you are just afraid of life!" or "Josh, you are a selfish bastard!", I would have taken the comment as just another component of the debate, not a personal attack/criticism. I haven't gotten pissed off about anything anyone has said thus far... although I get a bit annoyed if we dont respond to each others questions/observations.

Despite boasting that I'm not afraid of getting hurt....(its funny that I said that)...I really am afraid, just to an extent. I can handle being hurt, I just don't want to, lets say. And there are some things that would hurt much much worse than other things. For example, being married with 3 kids at age 30 and wishing I wasn't so I could go on a South American adventure or something. Or wishing I had time to paint or write music. Or wishing I had some quite time to myself. Selfish, yes, but if we're not doing what we want to do, what's the point?

See, I'm 29 years old. I'm not yet as free as I'd like to be due to financial limitations, but I thank the lord each day (not really) that I'm as free as I am. No one is telling me to get up and go to school each morning. I'm not stuck in school or church for hours a day. No one is telling me to do anything, except I've got an obligation to do things for my boss..to get paid. I'm done with college for now. I got my degree last December. So there's a small weight off my shoulders and my future is basically what I want to make it. I'm reveling in the freedom I've got now...the freedom I've seemed to wait most of my life for. With this foundation of freedom, I can make life whatever I want, whatever I can dream up.

bak bak! (a ckicken goes...)

 
At 8:27 PM, Blogger Josh said...

gar!, I'm having net connection problems...can't post!

 

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